Revolutionize Interactivity: Redefining the Future of Human-Computer Engagement

The Intimacy of Interactive Media: An Interview with Sam Barlow and Justin McElroy

Can watching a video feel more intimate, or more engaging, than playing a game? Join us as Sam Barlow, the creator of games like Her Story and Telling Lies, and Justin McElroy, a journalist and game critic, explore what makes players and viewers feel like they’re making their mark on media.

The Importance of Feeling Involved

Justin McElroy: Early on, a lot of FMV was undone by people who made video games wanting to make movies instead. I think there was a legitimacy they were going for there. I think what you did with Her Story, it sounds like you got to by thinking about mechanics first, and then video was the right fit for that, rather than, "We have this ability to put video in something. How can we layer video game mechanics on top of it?" which is very much what you see with Sewer Shark. But it sounds like part of the secret sauce with a lot of your games is this lack of changing what you’re interacting with. The freedom to just let it be something that you’re exploring with very limited "progression."

The Power of Limited Progression

Sam Barlow: I think at some point it’s terrifying because you’re like, "Wait a minute, isn’t this the stupidest idea? We’re taking this medium that ostensibly is about simulation; it’s ‘what can we program and simulate in a computer?’ And then you’re building that out of something that is entirely fixed. But again, it gets really interesting as a game designer. You go, "How much are we using the systemic element?"

Uncharted and the Limits of Control

Take Uncharted, for example. Uncharted has so much clever systemic stuff that goes into moment-to-moment making that character animate beautifully, and make it feel like you’re in control of them. But then structurally, all you can do with that character is jump on that one pipe, and when you jump on that one pipe, it will break and fall for everybody, dropping you into the marketplace in a surprising Indiana Jones-esque sequence. So, you’re like, "Well, OK, you’ve harnessed this technology, which is extremely fluid, but you’re using it to drive me into a single point."

Surveillance and Intimacy

And I wanted that feel to feel a little bit alive, so we had this mechanic where you couldn’t instantly skip to the start of things because that would make it feel too controllable, and too like fixed video. So, we had this mechanic where you could scrub, but it was deliberately slow, the scrubbing, so it kind of forced you to commit to rewinding. And there was also a very [Don’t Look Back] director Nick Roeg thing I had of like, if someone is scrubbing backwards through a scene, they’re still absorbing what’s happening, but in reverse. "Hey, this is kind of how memory works." When you remember things, you don’t remember them as playing out as a 30-minute conversation. You kind of jump around. But I was really into all this stuff, and I made all these very intentional choices. Then when the game came out, there was a bunch of people who played it who were like, "This sucks. Does the guy not know how video playback works? Oh, he’s such a lazy dev. He can’t code rewinding properly." And what I realized was, at this point in time, we’d become so accustomed to video players and how a video player should work, whether you’re watching it on your phone or on your computer or on your TV, there’s a sort of core framework now and an expectation that video will obey me, and that I have a certain level of control over it.

Breaking the Mold

And I violated that pact with Telling Lies, and it pissed some people off. So that really led to Immortality, of going, "OK, can we use this as a cool thing?" People have such a baked-in understanding now with video that they’re completely bought into the idea of, "If I watch a video clip and rewind it, it will behave and it will always be the same when I play it back again." And it will always behave. And if we break that, it will feel really surprising and weird. And actually, we did some really early experiments, and it was freaking me out. I was like, "Oh my God, I’m jumping, and I’m feeling weird about having these little surprising elements." And I think that there’s so much you could do with that. And then I think, the trouble with the TV people making interactive movies is there is a lack of game feel, which is a thing I’ve always also tried to lean into with my games is, yes, these are FMV games. Yes, they are nonlinear narrative games. But I want some game feel in there because as a Nintendo-head, I know that’s really, really important. So, how does the scrubbing work in Immortality? What is the aesthetic of the CRT screen in Her Story? So, the act of clicking when you type in Her Story, the stereo panning on the key noises, to try and make it feel very tactile.

The Importance of Tactile Feedback

These are all things that I know are really important to my games, and making them feel, and work, that doesn’t translate onto a television. Right? A TV remote is one of the worst game controllers going. So, there is that.

A Shift in Thinking

And I think that’s what I’m hoping to get out of this whole thing. A shift in thinking from, "Okay, I’m just watching a video" to "I’m interacting with a medium, and I’m making it my own." And I think that’s going to be a big part of what makes these games feel really different and really special.

Read More from This Conversation

We’ll be running more excerpts from this conversation between Sam Barlow and Justin McElroy each weekend. In the most recent installment, they talked about the history of FMVs and what we lost in our obsession with high-quality video. Before that, they discussed how Netflix killed interactive films. Check back soon for more insightful discussions on the future of interactive media!